Texas Department of Transportation Commission Meeting

Dewitt C. Greer Building
125 East 11th Street
Austin, Texas

9:00 a.m. Thursday, March 27, 2003

COMMISSION MEMBERS:

JOHN W. JOHNSON, Chairman
ROBERT L. NICHOLS
RIC WILLIAMSON
 

STAFF:

MIKE W. BEHRENS, Executive Director
RICHARD MONROE, General Counsel
CHERYL M. WILLIAMS, Executive Assistant to the Deputy Executive Director
DEE HERNANDEZ, Minute Order Clerk

MR. JOHNSON: Good morning. It is 9:13 a.m., and I would like to call this meeting of the Texas Transportation Commission to order. Welcome to our March meeting. It is a pleasure to have you here today.

Please note for the record that public notice of this meeting, containing all items of the agenda, was filed with the Office of the Secretary of State at 2:23 p.m. on March 19, 2003.

Customarily, before we begin each meeting I ask my colleagues on the commission if they have any words that they would like to say, and so I turn to Robert.

MR. NICHOLS: Thank you. No long speeches. Just welcome everyone here. We very much appreciate you taking the time off your work or whatever goes on in your life to come here and express the concerns or wants or needs of your community, and for that we're very thankful. We do listen intently to it and it makes a big impact on the decisions we make. And when you go home, be careful. Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON: Ric?

MR. WILLIAMSON: And I echo the words of welcome. We appreciate our partners in transportation. I think it's safe to say that the challenges that we all face sometimes seem to be individual, sometimes seem to be regional, and sometimes seem to be national or statewide, but in the end, an individual transportation challenge is a challenge for this state -- we are, after all, one state -- and today's activities, I think, will give us a chance to have pretty good dialogue about regional versus local versus state responsibility. It may get a bit heated at times but we all need to remember that we're all Texans and this is one state and we all have one goal and that is to relieve the pain. So I look forward to spending the day with a lot of people from my part of the state and Texans who are interested in transportation.

MR. JOHNSON: We have three delegations this morning, so it will be a very full morning for us. Before I call the first delegation, I know there are perhaps some elected officials who have pressing duties across the street that need to, at the beginning of the meeting, get their words spoken so they can get back across the street to the various committee meetings that they have this morning. So I would like to ask if there are any of these who would like to come before the commission now. I know Representative Van Arsdale is here and would like to address the commission at this time, and if there are any others, please feel free to come forward so we can get you back to your very necessary work across the street.

Representative Van Arsdale, you are here on behalf of the Tomball Delegation, I am certain of that.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: That's right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and commissioners. I would actually rather speak with the delegation but we have a bit of a battle going on over in the House and I need to get back over there.

I'm speaking on behalf of this Project 67, the State Highway 249 Bypass in Tomball, and when I ran for the legislature last year -- that's when I got elected -- transportation was my number one issue. A lot of folks had education and other things, and those are all important, but you can go check my website, that's my number one issue, and I wanted to see the State put more priority on transportation, and obviously I wanted to get some more attention into my district.

I have a constituent by the name of John Culverson -- who I know you guys are familiar with -- and he just was sort of all over this Katy Freeway deal, and this project in Tomball is nothing on the scale of that but it's very important. Take more time to listen to the folks that are here, but I just wanted you to know real quickly that this is probably my number one priority as a legislator. It was before I got elected, it is after I'm elected, and I'm just going to put a lot of attention on it because it's not just a money issue, there are some other things to it that are problematic, and that involve the attorney general, possibly the Railroad Commission, involving some mineral interests. And I've got legislation filed and I'm going to be very active on it.

And in fact, I'm actually moving to Tomball in July so this bypass -- we kind of built both ends of 249 but it's the middle section that hasn't been done, and I'm going to be traveling through that sucker every day going back to work, and so I'm going to be attentive to it and I'm going to know exactly what's going on and what's not going on because I'm going to be on it every day. I just wanted you to know that I'm very interested in it and I will be very focused on it, and anything you can do to help would be much appreciated.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very much. I know that Senator Lindsay was hopeful of being here this morning also and might well be able to get here a little later. So he's missed if he's not going to be here, and I know he intended to speak out on behalf of this because Tomball is his hometown.

Ric, did you have a question of the representative?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Man, you look awfully young.

(General laughter.)

MR. WILLIAMSON: Congratulations on your willingness to serve the State of Texas for $600-and-change a month.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Thank you.

MR. WILLIAMSON: This session so far has been one of discussion and some cussing over the notion of regionalism and planning and execution of transportation. Senator Lindsay has suggested, and I think Harris County Judge Robert Echols has suggested, that the counties that the state recognizes as being the Southeast Texas Region might begin to think about a regional approach to funding, and to a lesser extent, to planning and operations. Do you have an opinion yet as a legislator about whether or not that's in the state's best interest or in Southeast Texas' best interests?

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Well, the more I look at it, the more I see some benefits from it just because of the way all these formulas work at the federal and state level. You know, a tax dollar taken out of somebody -- for example, Tomball -- for transportation, by the time it flows through all the formulas and when it comes back it's just a fraction of that amount that actually gets spent there.

And I'll tell you this -- and I'm not trying to inject politics into this, but my district is one of the most Republican districts in the whole state. It's got about 80 percent Republican and it's a very conservative district and they don't like taxes, but I'm going to tell you something, if there was one tax, I think, that the folks in the suburbs of Houston would be willing to pay, it is a tax that they know if they were taxed a dollar, that that dollar would get spent on roads in that area on transportation. That's the only tax I know of that folks in that political spectrum would be willing to pay. So I think that the regional mobility authority is something that would probably pass if it was brought to the voters.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Do you think there's any reason why the legislature, not only in Houston -- I'm not trying to put you on the spot but we need to have these dialogues because they are about 150 people watching us and probably several thousand going to watch us after it's over with, and this is a good way for you and I to inject some thought process -- do you think the state, with regard to Houston-Beaumont-Galveston, Weatherford-Fort Worth-Dallas, and the other metropolitan areas of the state, do you think the state ought not to encourage -- or maybe TxDOT, do you think we ought to encourage people to talk about the importance of Interstate 10 to people who live in Tomball and the importance of 59 to people who live in the Fifth Ward? I mean, do you think we ought to be encouraging that kind of talk?

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Now, are you saying encouraging people in Tomball?

MR. WILLIAMSON: To be as concerned about what's going on on 59 or 10 or the Fifth Ward as those same people should be encouraged to worry about what's going on transportation-wise in Tomball.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Yes, I would think so. I'm not sure exactly what the role of -- in other words, if you're talking about TxDOT, that's a governmental entity, so I think people don't understand a lot of times how things are linked in this state economically. Harris County is always known for having sort of fights amongst themselves, and I don't think Dallas and people in the Panhandle really appreciate how much, like for example, the Port of Houston does for the whole state. I think people tend to view things provincially and I think that's a mistake because everything links to everything else, and if I-10 has problems, that's problems for the whole Houston economy, and some of the Houston economy, those folks live in Tomball. So I don't think it's necessarily as obvious of a link and anything we can do to help to make that more obvious I think is a good thing.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, for example, would it not be the case, in your opinion, that people in Humble and Tomball and Pearland and Conroe might feel less animus towards, for example, the Houston Metro if the Houston Metro was a Southeast Texas Metro instead and it operated to serve all citizens.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: That's without question. I mean, you're talking to the wrong person there. I've got legislation right now that changes up the Metro board.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Maybe I'm talking to the right person.

(General laughter.)

MR. VAN ARSDALE: I mean, I think you're right. There's a lot of animus about Metro simply because there's one person, the mayor of Houston, that controls it.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And the animus has created -- this is my opinion now, not yours; I'm not trying to inject yours -- but it's my opinion in my years in the legislature that the animus is more about people in The Woodlands not having a vested interest in Houston Metro. If they had a vested interest in it, they would view it differently, but because they don't have any interest in it, it doesn't serve them, it seems as though that acts to divide the region as opposed to uniting the region.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Absolutely. And I would submit that The Woodlands has absolutely no interest but folks like, say, in the northwest unincorporated areas, they have, I think, an indirect say on two members of the board. That's somewhat of an interest, but I still say, practically, it's the same amount that The Woodlands has, which is nil. I mean, if you're not in with the mayor with our transit authority, you're out, and that's why you can go from having a mayor like Bob Lanier who was adamantly opposed to rail, have an election where you elect Mayor Lee Brown who is completely supportive of rail, and overnight have a switch on regional transit policy. I think that's a mistake to have any board that can do that.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, one of the things that spurs this discussion is we have, I think, some of those rough spots or divisions beginning to develop in my part of the state and I hate to see that, and you've allowed me to use you as a forum to talk to some of my friends from North Texas ahead of time about that.

(General laughter.)

MR. WILLIAMSON: Plus, you've also given me the opportunity to discuss the Grand Parkway which is, I know, of personal interest to Senator Lindsay, and the fact that if you look at a map, if you can envision the Grand Parkway completed -- probably as a toll road with a commuter rail and even some industrial freight rail to get stuff out of the area fast -- that's about as good an example of something that could unite the entire Southeast Texas area as there probably is, and he's interested in that.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: One of the other things I'd like to say about the bypass is that I spoke to someone at TxDot about there are a handful of lights, a very small number of lights there, traffic signals, that aren't synchronized, and I think two of them have the infrastructure already put in to be synchronized and the other ones don't. To the extent that anything can be done in the meantime until we get the bypass issue sorted out and the money, if we can just get something so that this traffic can move, that's the big concern right now. You've got, like I said, both ends of it built and then they get to this one area where it's not built and the lights are out of sync and it's a massive problem.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Some people say we do those things on purpose so we'll get more money.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Well, I don't think it's working.

(General laughter.)

MR. VAN ARSDALE: And I'll tell you something else -- just as a sort of subtle hint -- is that the other two reps that this really affects are Rob Eissler's folks and Peggy Hamric, who is the CBO of Transportation.

MR. WILLIAMSON: We're well aware. Thank you for letting us do this.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: You bet.

MR. JOHNSON: Robert, did you have any questions of the representative?

MR. NICHOLS: No.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very much.

MR. VAN ARSDALE: Thank you very much.

MR. JOHNSON: Are there any other elected representatives or senators that would like to come before the commission at this moment?

(No response.)

CITY OF LUBBOCK

(David George, Kevin Evans)

MR. JOHNSON: Seeing none, we'll move to our first delegation, and I understand the good folks from Lubbock, Texas have come a long way to be with us. I also understand that Senator Duncan was going to lead the delegation but he heard that Ric was going to put him in the spotlight, so he declined.

(General laughter.)

MR. JOHNSON: So leading the delegation will be David George, I believe. David, welcome. We're glad that the good folks from the High Plains are here.

MR. GEORGE: Thank you on behalf of the citizens of Lubbock and the Lubbock Chamber of Commerce for this opportunity to speak to the commission. Before I start, I needed to mention what you did and acknowledge some people who are not in this room, that being Representative Carl Isett, however, his legislative director Mike Arismendez is in the room.

Mike, thanks for Carl's support.

Representative Jones is not here as well, and as you mentioned, Senator Duncan is not.

Senator Duncan did give me a letter that I'd like to read quickly about his support of what you have done.

"Dear Commissioner Johnson and Members Mr. Nichols and Mr. Williamson: As the day for construction on the Marsha Sharp Freeway draws near, I would like to thank you for your support of this project that is so important to Lubbock and to the entire South Plains region.

"Visionary leaders of our community first identified the future need for this freeway more than 40 years ago. Since that time, many community leaders and TxDOT have labored to reach this exciting juncture. Without your support for this project, as evidenced through the commission's discretionary funds and the new Unified Transportation Program, we would not be preparing to begin construction on the freeway. Your assistance will allow the Lubbock District to meet the region's transportation infrastructure needs that will serve so many area traffic generators.

"The Marsha Sharp Freeway is not the only transportation needed in the greater Lubbock area. The Ports to Plains Corridor remains a top priority for us, as well as communities in other states and in Mexico. The commissioners' support for Ports to Plains is also deeply appreciated.

"Thanks for your support and leadership in meeting West Texas' growing transportation demands. Yours very truly, Senator Robert Duncan."

He appreciates your work, as we all do.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

MR. GEORGE: In the past, the Lubbock Chamber of Commerce has appeared before the commission to request funding for portions of the East-West, or Marsha Sharp Freeway. Today, about one month before the beginning of construction on the first project of the freeway, we are happy to come before you and offer our thanks for your past support and to provide you with an update of the progress we are making on this important project, as well as other important transportation initiatives in the Lubbock area.

I'd also like to recognize Randy Hopmann who is the new district engineer for this area.

Thanks, Randy.

And Steve Warren, who is not here today. He is taking advantage of the low interest rates and refinancing his house, I understand. He is the director of transportation planning and development. Steve has worked on this project since its inception for, you could say, hours and hours, and then days and days, and weeks and months and years, and almost a decade that he has worked on this project off and on, and we truly appreciate his help as well.

Construction for the freeway begins in May. This marks the beginning of the end of a very long planning process. The idea of the East-West Freeway through Lubbock first appeared in a 1961 long-range planning paper from the city. It appeared again in the 1964 Lubbock Urban Transportation Plan. The first public hearings actually took place in 1989, so we've worked long and hard on this and it's finally coming to fruition, and we appreciate it.

A great deal of the right of way has been acquired and cleared and now we will finally see dirt being moved, resulting in construction, asphalt and concrete. We can't say enough to thank you and thank the commission for their support of this project through their funding through the former Category 12 funds. Thanks again.

The freeway will be a vital route through the heart of Lubbock. In this picture you see, in the top upper right-hand corner, houses in the heart of Lubbock. In the center of the picture, the larger buildings are the medical district of Lubbock. The freeway runs from the bottom right towards the top left. A little higher and harder to see, right about the top left of the screen, is Texas Tech University and the United Spirit Arena which this freeway will feed. A little further up to the left out of sight off this picture is the -- I have to say -- Jones SBC Stadium on Texas Tech University -- since I work for SBC. It is directly adjacent to this freeway. So this freeway runs through the heart of Lubbock feeding many, many businesses, universities and a lot of traffic count.

The Marsha Sharp Freeway will connect every major highway entering Lubbock with major traffic generators. Many of Texas Tech's 27,000 students and 8,500 employees will use the freeway, not to mention those attending sporting events and other activities on the campus at Texas Tech University. Running right underneath the campus or right by about half the campus and actually splitting part of it, this will be a great feeder for the students and faculty at Tech.

It will serve the medical district which that medical district is large, it services a seven-county region the size of Pennsylvania. It will really impact traffic flows in and out of the medical region. It will also serve the downtown business district and several shopping and entertainment centers.

When we appeared before you in the past, we expressed our concern over the abandoned buildings that ran through the heart of our city, waiting to be cleared for the freeway. One out-of-town reporter in town for a basketball game, driving back to the airport drove down what is now Fourth Street, called the chamber of commerce and said: What's happening to your town? Is it drying up and blowing away, abandoned buildings, broken glass?

Today much of that right of way has been cleared, the center of the town is looking less and less like a ghost town and more and more like progress, and we appreciate TxDOT's efforts to do that.

The Lubbock Chamber of Commerce realizes that this will be a long-term project and that the construction process will cause many inconveniences for the people of Lubbock, especially those that live in the construction zone, drive through the construction zone, walk in the construction zone, and those that have businesses in the construction zone. The staff at the district office has been very helpful throughout the planning process and has spoken with chamber committees as well as groups of individual citizens. However, we realize that until the orange barrels appear, people really don't pay as much attention as they should.

The chamber is doing our very best to facilitate open communication with our district office and the businesses affected through the process. With that in mind, the Lubbock Chamber of Commerce and the TxDOT district office are hosting a public meeting on April 10 focusing on the affected business owners and people can hear directly from TxDOT employees and the contractors on what to expect during construction, as well as suggestions to minimize delays and adverse impacts on their businesses. So we're really trying to be proactive on that and really trying to help TxDOT out.

We will also be quick to support TxDOT with letters to the editor or other needed media as we have in the past. For instance, in the South Loop 289 project when there was a lot of stuff getting around town, a lot of talk going on, we did what we could to quiet that down, point out the progress, and we'll do that sort of thing. In a nutshell, the chamber of commerce will do everything it can to facilitate communications between TxDOT, affected businesses, Lubbock citizens and chamber members.

We appreciate the past commitment of the commission for making this important project for our region become a reality. We look forward to your continued support through funding for right of way acquisition or other issues that may arise. We would be remiss if we did not voice our support for your decision to revamp and streamline the funding formula in the new UTP. We believe that decision has resulted in a more balanced distribution of a the very limited transportation dollars.

While the freeway has been a top priority, we do have other transportation issues. For the past two years, the Lubbock Chamber of Commerce has been working to bring passenger rail service to Lubbock through the proposed Caprock Xpress rail line that runs from Fort Worth to Denver. This proposal has met with great interest and been warmly received from Lubbock, obviously, but as well from cities along that route including Amarillo, Abilene, and others.

Finally, of course, is the Ports to Plains Corridor which continues to not only be a top transportation initiative for our area but a top economic driver. And with that, I will ask Ports to Plains Corridor Coalition president Kevin Evans to come forward to tell you about the Ports to Plains.

We thank you for what you've done with the Marsha Sharp Freeway.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

MR. EVANS: Thank you, David.

Commissioner Johnson, Mr. Nichols, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Behrens. Thank you for allowing us to be here once again. It's fun to be part of a group to come say thank you and not have our hand out. Of course, you and I both know that we'll be back again someday so it's good to do these things.

First of all, I need to read you a letter that our chairman Randy Neugebauer has written and asked me to bring to you. He is unable to be with us; he's a little busy right now.

"Gentlemen: I regret that I'm unable to be with you today. I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to thank you for all your efforts on behalf of transportation in the State of Texas.

This commission has addressed the most difficult challenges to ever face transportation in our great state, yet you have faced these challenges head-on with leadership and innovation. You have especially recognized the importance of connectivity and trade corridors to the entire state. Your emphasis on these issues has created new opportunities for several regions of Texas that desperately needed them.

With the growth of NAFTA trade, it is important to provide alternative routes that help alleviate the strain on transportation infrastructure currently felt in parts of our state. You recognized this need and made the tough decisions necessary to create options for the future. You have given Ports to Plains the opportunity to prove ourselves worthy of that task. We will not let you down.

The visionary leadership you have provided has helped ensure that Texas will continue to thrive and prosper on the back of its excellent transportation system. Again, thank you for what you have done for Lubbock, for Ports to Plains and for the great State of Texas."

I wanted to also bring you up to date on the growth of the seeds that you planted. I know it was a tough decision; it was a change in the way things are done in this state. Your new UTP is an example of that. I want to applaud you in those efforts; I feel fortunate and honored to have been a part of those efforts. I think the things you're going to be seeing from Category 4 and Category 2 that we know of will be worthy of your consideration.

If you'll look at the map, you will see that in the southern region south of the border between Texas and Mexico we've drawn a line that goes all the way to Mexico City. On April 11 we will be meeting with the governor of Coahuila in Saltillo and we will begin discussing with them the designation in Mexico in Coahuila of the Ports to Plains route from the border to Saltillo, and from there we intend to grow it all the way to Mexico City and market it and do the things that we do as a coalition.

To the north we're going to grow a little bit differently. North of Denver you will see the Heartland Express which is the sister coalition of ours, a sister national high priority corridor. I believe they're number 14, whereas, on the federal level we're number 38. And then north of that there is a new group beginning to form called the Theodore Roosevelt Expressway. We are executing memorandums of understanding with these two groups, working very closely with them through reauthorization and other efforts in Washington and in their respective states, in order to get our way into Canada ensured and begin marketing that effort also.

I felt it important to show you that the seeds you did have the courage to plant are growing and we're working very hard in that way.

And as you heard before, it's about economic opportunity. You'll notice our sign put up on the corner, a Westmark Realtors sign. We did this as kind of a pilot project beginning last year and this particular picture was taken in Abernathy. I really kind of like it because it's got I-27 and an American flag and a truck in the background, and then maybe more importantly, it has a County Line Barbecue sign there on the right.

(General laughter.)

MR. EVANS: But this is the direction we're heading gentlemen. We're not only going to try to facilitate and coordinate the construction of this highway over the next couple of decades or so, we're going to market it and we're going to bring more people and more opportunity and try to help four different states and six different regions of those states not only survive but thrive. You gave us that opportunity; you were the kickoff point and made those decisions, those innovative decisions, and we just want to say thank you very much.

MR. JOHNSON: Kevin, thank you. Robert or Ric, do you have anything?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Is that all the speakers for Lubbock?

MR. JOHNSON: That's all I have listed here.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I'll take the bait. Where's Wendy?

MR. EVANS: She's not mayor anymore, Ric. But do you want me to say what she'd say or do you want me to give you that time back? We have friends here from Dallas that I know would like to have it.

MR. WILLIAMSON: We're just so accustomed to seeing Wendy that it seems like there's an empty hole when she's not around to speak.

MR. EVANS: We've got a good mayor to replace her, but I tell you what, we miss her.

MR. NICHOLS: I had a couple of things. Just send a message back to the Lubbock area, and for the ones that are here, that we appreciate your consistent support on projects. Some communities have a tendency over a few years to shift from this area to that area, but you have been consistent, as far as I know, for the last six years in support of specific projects, a very big project that we'll be incrementally funding it as we can, and you have stayed with it. We appreciate that; I think that's a good approach. You have put up money, local commitment, vesting, we appreciate that.

I will say this is the first time I've ever been in any meeting where somebody talked about Ports to Plains that Randy Neugebauer was not there.

MR. EVANS: He's here in spirit.

MR. NICHOLS: With his bricks or railroad track or whatever it was that he used. So tell him we miss him and good luck.

I appreciate the comments on the funding formula. We are trying, based on comments we have heard from around the state and from our elected officials and the legislature, to revamp a funding mechanism based on input from the various areas of the state, metropolitan, urban, statewide connectivity, and something that is logical, fair, productive, and we appreciate the time you served on that. And we'll be hearing some comments probably when Dallas talks about the metropolitan funding, see how that's going. But it is a new approach and I do appreciate those comments.

And the last thing, your new district engineer, Randy Hopmann, you stole him from my home district.

MR. EVANS: Yes, sir, we did. Proud to have him.

MR. NICHOLS: He is a good one. I had the opportunity locally to work some with him over a period of years and he did an outstanding job where he is and I know he's very excited to be where he is now, and I want you to know that you got a good one.

MR. EVANS: That Tyler District has always been a good district and people like Randy have made it that way.

MR. NICHOLS: Thank you for being here.

MR. EVANS: Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. Ric, did you have anything else?

MR. WILLIAMSON: No.

MR. JOHNSON: We will take a brief recess. The next group up is the Dallas-Fort Worth Area Partners in Mobility, and we'll stand in recess for a moment to let our friends from Lubbock to get back and our friends from Dallas to get set.

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

DALLAS-FORT WORTH AREA PARTNERS IN MOBILITY

(Mayor Kenneth Barr, Brooke Guest for Senator Jane Nelson, Judge Margaret Keliher, Judge Ron Harris, Alan Howeth, Pam McQuitty, John Murphy, Mayor Laura Miller)

MR. JOHNSON: We will reconvene the meeting. Our second delegation this morning is from the Dallas-Fort Worth area. The group represents area businesses, cities and counties, plus there's several state officials involved.

Before we begin with the fine mayor of Fort Worth, Mayor Kenneth Barr, I understand that some state representatives and senators, or perhaps their staffs, have expressed an interest in either entering something for the record or making a comment or two. I have a list here; I'm going to call some names out. If you're present, we'd love for you to come forward; if you're not, your name will be in the record.

I understand that Brooke Guest, who works with Senator Jane Nelson, is here and has a letter.

Did you want this entered into the record, Brooke, or did you want to say something.

MS. GUEST: Please. I will read the letter from the senator.

MR. JOHNSON: The floor is yours.

MS. GUEST: Good morning, commissioners. My name is Brooke Guest and I'm here on behalf of Senator Jane Nelson, and Senator Nelson would have loved to have been here today, but unfortunately she is tied up with chairing the Health and Human Services Committee; but it is my privilege to read a letter in support of DFW Partners in Mobility.

"Dear Commissioners: I've reviewed the project list being presented today by the DFW Partners in Mobility and I would like to offer my enthusiastic support for the items being discussed.

As you will hear from the individuals testifying today, the transportation needs in our Metroplex are substantial. The ability of our region to grow and attract new business is directly linked to our ability to provide highway access to the millions of Texans who live, work, and shop in our region. If we can ensure that North Texas is able to continue to prosper, the entire state benefits. Ultimate healthy growth will lead us into more prosperous times, and as a member of the Senate Finance Committee, I strongly support projects like these that can help our economy.

The projects being put forward today have been researched thoroughly, and I commend Partners in Mobility for putting together a list that benefits all of the communities in our Metroplex. Please accept my strong support as you give these projects your consideration. Very truly yours, Senator Jane Nelson."

Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very much, Brooke.

I have a list of names of representatives who endeavored to be here but obviously, I believe, got caught in some business across the street, and I wanted to read their names. Representative Jodie Anne Laubenberg, Representative Bill Zedler, Representative Bob Griggs, Representative Tony Goolsby, Representative Linda Harper-Brown, and Representative Will Hartnett.

Are there any other aides or elected representatives here that would like to come forward at this time? Seeing none, Mayor Barr, we are delighted that you're here, and you have a wonderful delegation as usual, and we look forward to your presentation.

MAYOR BARR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and commissioners and Director Behrens. We are very pleased to be here today and have the opportunity to visit with you about the Dallas-Fort Worth Area Partners in Mobility.

As you know, this is a coalition of public and private sector leaders from throughout the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, and we have come here to share with you our thoughts about transportation in our region and the future. We feel that by coming to you as a single entity, as a single group, that we speak with a larger voice and purpose than any of us could do on our own. In the binders that are at your place there at the table you'll find copies of our presentation and the related graphics and an executive summary of the presentation.

Our delegation is made up of mayors and council members and county judges and commissioners and city managers and transportation professionals, chamber of commerce presidents and board members and others that are leaders from nearly every community in North Central Texas, and at this time, I'd like to ask the members of our delegation if they would stand.

(General laughter.)

Commissioner Williamson, we appreciate you joining us in standing.

I tell you, this is about 150 of us that have come down here, and this is our ninth consecutive annual presentation before this commission. Although each year we've brought new challenges and proposals to you, there's one theme that has been consistent throughout all these presentations over the last nine years, and that is that we believe that continued investment in our surface transportation infrastructure is critical to sustain the quality of life in our region.

Making this trip to Austin requires a substantial commitment from each one of these delegates that are here, and I believe their presence here today with us is indicative of the importance that we in North Texas place on addressing our mobility needs. I really want to thank all the people that are here that are in this delegation who have come to be a part of the Partners in Mobility, and to thank you as the members of the commission for your time this morning to hear our presentation.

The message we're going to talk to you about today is bringing a message forth focused upon strategic investment opportunities. Our country, our state, our local governments, at these levels we are all facing difficult financial times. We recognize that TxDOT, like all of us, is facing the mandate of cutting its budget. At every level of government we are striving to be smarter about how we use our limited resources. As a result, we believe that it is indeed in these difficult economic times that we must focus attention on strategic investment opportunities, opportunities that capitalize on partnerships, and opportunities that allow for the leverage of federal, state and local dollars to provide the greatest amount of mobility benefits for the dollars that we have available.

Our presentation will focus on three areas, each of which serves to reinforce the importance of strategic investment opportunities. We will provide an overview of key components in our metropolitan transportation plan, including an update on the implementation of toll roads in North Texas. We will discuss growth, travel trends and performance measures for our region that we believe underscore the critical importance of the state's continued investment in our mobility and we will bring forth to you an enhanced partnership program proposal for the funding of strategic transportation facilities in the Fort Worth-Dallas region.

Now let me call upon Dallas County Judge Margaret Keliher to continue our presentation. Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON: I believe my colleague Commissioner Williamson has a question for you, Mayor, and probably the successive speakers also.

MR. WILLIAMSON: First of all, I truly regret that you're departing public life temporarily. I think you're one of the finest big city mayors -- we have two of the best in this room today, and I truly hate that you have to do this. I think the citizens of Fort Worth are going to select someone who has your evenhandedness and yet willingness to take on tough issues, but as a guy who's a lightning rod -- sometimes -- I appreciate another guy or gal who's willing to be a lightning rod.

About a month ago, my very good friend Steve Wolens and my very good friend Kim Brimer asked me to attend a meeting here in the Austin area concerning their idea about regionalization in North Texas, and you weren't able to attend the meeting but I think someone from your office was there.

MAYOR BARR: Right.

MR. WILLIAMSON: If memory serves me correctly, the Dallas County judge was there, Margaret was there, the mayor of Dallas was there, of course Mr. Wolens and Mr. Brimer, and there were some others whose names escape me now, and I apologize if I embarrass them. Did your staff report back to you that the meeting was to discuss general concepts of how to propose a bill to get people to talk about a regionalization? Is that generally what was reported to you?

MAYOR BARR: Yes, sir. I think that the dialogue that has been started because of this legislation being filed is exactly what we need. It is the start of a discussion about where we need to go to get out of the box -- to use a phrase that's becoming somewhat trite, but we have an opportunity in front of us. I was telling some people at the reception last night that there are 5.2 million people that live in the Metroplex. It is an area with a population larger than 38 of the states, and we are the 26th largest economy in the world, United States, Japan and coming down the list, the Metroplex is number 26 on that list. And if we don't start figuring out new strategies and new ways to address critical issues -- and the most critical issues, I think, in Texas today are education and transportation -- if we don't figure out a way to address the transportation issues, we are going to start losing ground and our economy will not continue to prosper and grow.

And what I think this bill is all about is beginning the dialogue to talk about, as I described it last night, stepping back to 40,000 feet in the air and looking at the whole region and not worrying about where the city limit signs are and not worrying about the existing institutions, but rather look at the whole broad area and say: Here are the workplaces and here's where the people live and we need to figure out how to link all of this together more effectively. And then we come down to the ground and start working on the jurisdictions and the funding and the governance and so forth. And to me, that's what this dialogue is about, and I appreciate your participation in it and I appreciate the leadership that Senator Brimer and Representative Wolens and others are bringing to this process.

It's not about a continuation of the status quo, it's not against any institution or organization or entity of government, it's really about building on the success, and we've got some great success: DART is a great success story, the "T" is a great success story, NTTA is a great success story. We have to build on that and build on the partnership opportunities.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And do I understand that your staff didn't report back to you that the meeting at any time discussed the purpose of the idea of Mr. Wolens and Mr. Brimer was to destroy any entity that was currently within whatever regional boundary might exist?

MAYOR BARR: I'm not aware of any desire to destroy any agency or operation. I think what we're talking about is creating opportunities to build on the successes that these organizations have had in the past years.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you for helping me lay the groundwork for the questions I'm going to ask everybody else who comes up here, and then just two more quick ones. You know I live in Weatherford outside the Tarrant County line. Is it fair for me to get on Interstate 20 and drive into Fort Worth and through Dallas into Mesquite and not pay my share of the cost of cleaning up the air?

MAYOR BARR: Well, for you we will make a special exception.

(General laughter.)

MAYOR BARR: We'd love for you to come into Fort Worth and into our city to shop and go to entertainment venues and enjoy the wonderful things we have in Fort Worth. There's a cost associated with having that opportunity and we need to figure out a way that the people that live in this whole region help foot the bill for that, and the taxpayers of Fort Worth and Dallas and the other cities in the core of the Metroplex don't have to foot the whole bill.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And is it your understanding that if we go nonattainment and are restricted by the federal government in any way that those restrictions will also affect the citizens of Parker County?

MAYOR BARR: I think that a careful analysis of the situation will indicate that the entire region will be affected, I don't think there's anything about it. And I want to say one other thing about this clean air thing. To me it's a health issue. I'm a businessman and I understand the economics, but frankly, the EPA is driven by being concerned about people's health and about asthma and young kids, and adults for that matter, that have breathing problems, and to me we are focusing on the wrong thing when we keep talking about it strictly from an economic standpoint. This is a health issue and we need to be addressing it from that standpoint. I'm not saying we ignore the business ramifications because those are the consequences under the laws that exist, but I think it's a mistake not to focus on the fact that we're talking about quality of life, we're talking about health for individuals, and the businesses is where the impact is going to be but I'm concerned about the people.

MR. WILLIAMSON: So it is the case that even though we have our family squabbles, the truth is when Dallas sneezes, we say "God bless you" in Fort Worth, and when Plano has traffic jams, we feel it in Hillsboro, and we have to all continue to talk about the fact that as in Houston, Galveston and Beaumont, in Dallas, Fort Worth and Weatherford and Mesquite, in Plano and Hillsboro, we're all kind of linked together.

MAYOR BARR: Very much linked together, and we rise and fall together, so we have to figure out how to work together.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I hope you won't be a stranger to public policy.

MAYOR BARR: Well, I intend to stay involved, especially in transportation. Thank you. Can I have a list of the questions next time?

(General laughter.)

MR. WILLIAMSON: You let him get down before you could ask him anything.

MR. JOHNSON: Welcome, Judge.

JUDGE KELIHER: Good morning. My name is Margaret Keliher; I'm the Dallas County judge. All week I've been thinking I was going to lose my voice, and I kept thinking if I can just make it through Thursday morning, I'll be all right. I may lose it, though, right about the time Commissioner Williamson's questions start.

(General laughter.)

JUDGE KELIHER: It's my privilege this morning to highlight for you several of the major components of our metropolitan transportation plan and showcase for you the progress that we are making on this plan becoming a reality.

Mobility 2025, adopted by the Regional Transportation Council in May of 2000, calls for the construction of more than $49 billion in transportation improvements of which a majority of these projects are funded from local transportation sources, a major component of our region's evolving transportation system and our regional rail system. In the early 1900s through the 1930s, north Texans benefitted from an extensive inter-urban rail system that served to connect our cities and economic centers. Unfortunately, this system eventually gave way to the convenience of automobiles. Now, nearly a century later, we're well on our way to reestablishing a regional rail system that is moving commuters, creating new economic opportunities, improving the quality of life in our region, and assisting in meeting our air quality requirements.

With DART's recent opening of the Northeast line to Garland and the extension of the Dallas North Central line into Richardson and Plano, 44 miles of the planned 93-mile light rail system is now in operation, serving 55,000 riders daily. Efforts are well underway to begin construction on the final two remaining radial corridors of the light rail system: the Southeast line serving Fair Park and southeast Dallas, and the Northwest corridor connecting the Dallas central business district, Love Field, Irving, Las Colinas, DFW International Airport, Carrollton, and Farmers Branch.

Our rail system and future plans are not, however, limited to just the Dallas area. Plans call for the construction of a light rail system in Fort Worth with the initial construction connecting the central business and hospital districts. The Trinity Railway Express, our region's first commuter rail line, connects our vital regional economic centers of downtown Fort Worth, DFW International Airport, and downtown Dallas. The TRE continues to grow in ridership with more than 7,500 riders daily and has become our model for expanding commuter service.

Our Mobility 2025 plan calls for 152 miles of additional commuter rail services. The Regional Transportation Council and MPO staff, in cooperation with our transportation authorities and local governments, have embarked on an extensive regional rail implementation study with the emphasis on expediting rail system expansion. A major component of this rail planning effort involves working closely with our freight rail operators to address bottlenecks in our region's freight rail network which, if alleviated, may also facilitate opportunities for commuter rail implementation.

A specific task of this effort will be to coordinate our proposed Trans Texas Corridor with our region's freight and passenger rail system needs and provide recommendations to you about the location of these facilities. For example, a centrally located north-south Trans Texas alignment option between Interstate Highway 35 and Interstate Highway 45 may save billions of dollars by combining corridors, and a resultant east-west corridor would serve as a bypass route for Dallas-Fort Worth freight rail shipments.

Policy leaders throughout our region have begun an ongoing dialogue regarding future institutional models for expanding and integrating our regional transit operations. We remain confident that our plans for a truly regional rail system are well on their way to becoming a reality.

A major component of Mobility 2025 that is vital to moving more commuters is our high occupancy vehicle and managed lane system. Currently we have 31 miles of HOV lanes in operation. Even though these are interim HOV facilities, more than 100,000 commuters take advantage of these facilities daily.

As we move forward with TxDOT on the reconstruction of many of our freeways, our plan calls for construction of 266 miles of permanent HOV and managed lanes. These facilities are vital to addressing the future demand on many of our regional travel corridors. We are relying heavily on TxDOT and the North Texas Tollway Authority as partners with our transportation authorities and local governments in the design, construction and operation of these facilities.

And I guess before I turn the mike over, I'll take any questions.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Do you have the ability to switch back a slide?

MR. NICHOLS: Are you talking about the alternate on Trans Texas?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. I wasn't going to ask about this, but this is convenient to. So do I understand that urban Texas understands that they can propose alternatives that will be seriously considered -- alternative to the original concept? What that tells me is that North Texas recognizes that the green lines aren't set in concrete, as it were, that the thought process said: Wait a minute, we can do it differently to serve our interests best and we can advance that idea.

JUDGE KELIHER: We would like to be able to think there's dialogue available.

MR. WILLIAMSON: That pleases me to see that. That tells me that: Okay, we started the thought process and now urban Texas is looking around and saying wait a minute, maybe there's something better that accomplishes the same purpose.

JUDGE KELIHER: And let's keep the dialogue open to discover that. Yes.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Ken was a guinea pig and some of the questions got fleshed out, but I do need to ask you a few. You were at the meeting with Mr. Wolens and Mr. Brimer.

JUDGE KELIHER: I was.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Did you have the impression that at any time any of us were in disagreement that we needed to move forward with something?

JUDGE KELIHER: I had the impression that we all recognize the fact that we need to do something and explore the opportunities that may be available for regional transportation.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And with respect to me, because I have to serve everybody in this room, did I give you the impression that I thought any counties should be left out or anyone should be left out, or was I arguing that more counties should be brought in?

JUDGE KELIHER: I think that your attitude was very inclusive and a desire to have regional transportation for as many counties as possible.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And I didn't ask Mayor Barr because he doesn't have to serve anymore soon, but I need to ask you. If public servants at the local level were faced with having to advocate to their citizens an alternative to the admittedly rough discussion about I'm paying a sales tax for mine and you're not paying a sales tax for yours and you don't have any tax but you want into my system, and so maybe let's get all that out on the table and find something where we're all paying, would you advocate for a regional gasoline tax, would you advocate for a regional toll system, would you prefer not to advocate for anything, would you advocate for everyone passing a sales tax like I guess Dallas and Dallas County does? Do you have a sense of that?

And the reason I ask that is because soon the governor is going to be asked to seriously consider supporting some alternatives for urban Texas, and I think it would be beneficial if he began to have a sense of what mayors and judges and commissioners and council persons were willing to go out and advocate for: a regional gas tax; a regional sales tax on gas tax; converting some of the existing lanes to toll corridors so that everyone can do away with their dedicated sales tax, or what? And I'm curious what your perspective is.

JUDGE KELIHER: I guess -- and maybe in conjunction to the meeting we had that day -- my feeling about this when I came away from that is there are a lot of alternatives out there and some things that need to be explored. I think that some of the points that you made during that meeting -- that, for instance, TxDOT is going to be limited in funds and we're going to have to start looking for other ways to be able to fund transportation -- what are some of those options was a great way to start a dialogue going.

It's no hidden fact that the four county judges have sent letters to Brimer and to Wolens asking that we have some opportunities to explore what our options are. I think everybody supports regional transportation but at this time I am unclear as to what all my alternatives are; I'm unclear as to how another level of government fits in with some of the operations and the organizations that we already have. I think that we have people -- and obviously a lot of people here in this room -- who have given and been truly dedicated -- I mean, I'm a newcomer -- but have been truly dedicated to this issue of transportation, and I think we need to engage everyone in that conversation to be able to talk about regional transportation, and I, for one, would love to have that dialogue.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Would it be best to go ahead and create that legal framework and not try to define what that bureaucracy would look like and do that over the next two years, or is our interest served by just talking about it now and waiting for the next session to do something more formal?

JUDGE KELIHER: I can give you my personal opinion. I think the bill coming down like it is feels a little bit more like a cram-down, and I never think people are very happy about it when it comes at them that way. I think that if there was some dialogue -- I'm not going to say that at the end of two years we won't be back at the same place that we are setting up the authority just as it is right now, but I don't see the harm in waiting and doing it in two years and having the dialogue first.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, what about a whole lot of dialogue right now and getting it over with and setting the framework up and then dialogue about what's inside of it?

JUDGE KELIHER: I have to admit, in the short time I've been in government, if it could move that quickly, I'd be really impressed.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And in the relatively short time -- compared to Mr. Wolens -- that I was in the legislature, I learned that sometimes the very best things do move very fast, but that's just two different viewpoints. I thank you for talking to me.

JUDGE KELIHER: And I think they may, and I appreciate it, and at this time I will turn it over to my counterpart, Judge Ron Harris. Thank you.

MR. WILLIAMSON: My buddy.

JUDGE HARRIS: Are we at the "bro" stage yet?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Almost.

MR. NICHOLS: Could you turn the volume up on the mike?

JUDGE HARRIS: It depends on whether I'm asking questions.

MR. NICHOLS: No. I was serious to our audio people. I cannot hear it very good.

JUDGE HARRIS: Maybe it's just me.

MR. NICHOLS: It's not you, it's probably me.

JUDGE HARRIS: Does your wife tell you the same thing?

MR. NICHOLS: Yes. She says I just don't listen.

JUDGE HARRIS: Selective -- that's what it is, Mr. Commissioner.

(General laughter.)

JUDGE HARRIS: I am Ron Harris and I am Collin County judge and co-chair of the Dallas Regional Mobility Coalition; the other co-chair is Judge Keliher of Dallas. And that was set up, I guess several months ago, as Lee Jackson exited to the academic world and became a chancellor, and we've often invited him to come back and share in our fray, both on clean air and transportation, and he claims he has enough challenges raising the university to the status that he plans that to be.

My charge here today is to talk to you about the backbone in transportation that we have in our Texas, and that is both the TxDOT roads, city roads, as well as toll roads. We have today being driven in our area over 120 million vehicle miles every day, and that is expected to grow at over 200 million by 2025. Now, bear in mind, that is with roughly a 3 million population growth out of the 10 million that's going to come to our state in that same time line. I think there's 4 or 5 million in the area today, so you overlay 3 million and you can see where the transportation system is going to continue to be backlogged.

As 2025 comes, we're looking at the need for 2,500 additional freeway and tollway lanes at the current financially constrained level of $11.5 billion. Now, I would call your attention to something you may want to look into, when we say financially constrained, that does not say it will meet a 1.15 congestion level. As I was talking to Michael Morris this morning: there are roads that are needed that are not on the map; there are roads that, because of financial constraints, only a half a lane can be built -- and I don't want to drive in half a lane, not to mention 18-wheelers.

Many of these areas are actually focused on a 2025 congestion level of four hours, and that's not because anybody is not doing a good job, that's the financial constraint. And what I would pose to you, as we move into this, is that we as a state undertake a strategic plan to really see what we need. Michael Stevens from the Governor's Business Council, has come up with a report soon to be released that says we're $78 billion short statewide, and you can see how that could easily happen. That doesn't count your maintenance of the nation's largest roadway system.

We are also engaged in a statewide effort with the Houston Partnership in the greater Houston area, as well as Bexar County, in trying to build and raise the tide of funding for everyone. We are working in our area -- Mr. Williamson, I know you asked Chairman Dillard this morning when a toll road would come to Parker County.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I can't wait to pay my toll.

JUDGE HARRIS:  He probably indicated you needed a toll tag and a large MasterCard.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Absolutely.

(General laughter.)

JUDGE HARRIS: We do have 137 new toll lane miles since 1995 in the region. This is over $700 million worth of projects. I think I can safely say every one was in partnership with TxDOT. They would not have been financially feasible if we weren't able to partner, specifically on at least three or four very expensive interchanges that I know we did partner on. The transactions today right now are 780,000 transactions a day -- that's a lot of dimes, quarters, toll tags -- and we're running at about 668,000 toll tag users. And I can tell you it's wonderful not to be searching through your pocket or watching some folks in front of you stumble through while you're trying to get through a tollgate. I saw a person back out of one the other day and I thought somebody would call 911 over a gunshot.

The NTTA is working very diligently on the Southwest Parkway -- as they have for some time -- which will extend the toll road into Johnson County. They're working with the City of Dallas on alternatives for the Trinity Parkway and are fully supportive at whichever way the city moves on that, whether it's with a toll road or not.

We are also extending the Dallas North Tollway. The board approved design with a construction commitment to be complete by 2008 to extend main lanes all the way to 380. Citizens in Denton are excited about that because that will truly give them another route to go south. Right now, if something happened to one of those bridges, they would be pretty well tied up because 35 is the only way in and out of Denton.

And Lee Jackson also, I might add -- throwing in a word for him, and please tell him I mentioned it -- is very interested in 35 now; his focus has somewhat shifted. Once he said "I do" he started talking to us about Interstate 35.

We're also working in Collin County with Grayson County and Denton County on the toll road up north, ultimately through Grayson County. Denton is working on the Lewisville Bridge to connect 35 across to the toll road. We're working with Denton and the City of Denton on, roughly, an alignment along FM -- I think it's an FM -- or State Highway 455 that runs along the lake to become a northern loop around the Metroplex. It would ultimately extend through Collin County down east and hook up probably somewhere around I-30, and then travel south maybe to the outer loop that Dallas has been working on for a number of years.

We also have a real commitment at other alternatives like HOT lanes on the new LBJ project that we're working on that would be a combination HOV lane as well as a premium toll lane for somebody that drove in a single-occupancy vehicle. We're looking at congestion pricing, and as you said, Mr. Commissioner, I think -- although we've said it in different ways, as we discussed yesterday -- the viability of adding capacity and tolling it, not existing. Although, the way you put it could also work that if we're tolling two lanes, to build two free lanes, that certainly could, I think, be a sellable point, not turning a road into a total toll road. I don't have any hair for people to knock off but I have a feeling somebody would be after me with more than clippers if I turned 75 into a toll road.

At any rate, we are working together, we do speak on a regular basis. Certainly three of the counties operate through the DRMC, the Dallas Regional Mobility Coalition, and Commissioner Whitley is working, I think along with Mayor Barr, in forming a counterpart in the western region which we would certainly welcome because it's good to have dialogue and talk, as Judge Keliher said. And with that, I'm open to your questions.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I've been kind of hogging, but Robert or John, I don't mean to imply that I'm the only one that's got questions.

MR. NICHOLS: I have a list of things to go over, some of which I had, some of which I added, but I was going to kind of wait till everybody was through, because some of it may get answered in the process.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Judge, since you weren't present at the meeting that Mr. Wolens and Mr. Brimer called -- that I didn't call but Mr. Wolens and Mr. Brimer called -- it would be not productive for me to ask you about that, but I would ask you the same question I asked Judge Keliher about regional funding. If the commission, or frankly, if the governor were to proceed with offering the great urban regions of the state an alternative or an option to regionalize and raise revenue for transportation, do you have any instinct of what you would want to advocate for? I'm not asking you to commit to, I'm just curious what's your sense --

We obviously are toll-driven now at TxDOT, we're toll-driven for the reasons I shared with the House Transportation Committee earlier in the week. We don't believe that the support in the public's eye for gasoline taxes is what we sometimes think it is. We do believe that tolls, when you have a tax alternative, are sellable. We're running out of money. We're going to build toll roads whether the rest of the state likes it or not. We don't have any choice. We're going to be out of construction money in 25 years if we don't. I'm curious of your viewpoint.

JUDGE HARRIS: I think there's a couple of pieces that we would have to have, and certainly with our region's involvement in toll roads, I think you see our citizens support it where it is an alternative where it truly moves mobility, aka, the President George Bush Toll Road. That moved it up 15 years. We would a lot rather have had it as the TxDOT road that it started, but with federal funding and all that being, we chose to go toll road, and the region accepted it, the region supported it -- still do. It's one of the great compliments that many of us get when people say: When are you going to do another one?

But I think for us to do that and for us to campaign for either a gas tax or whatever, I think there's three things -- not having written anything down. One, we would need a commitment and a discussion with the commission that if our citizens invest money on their own, regional gas tax/more toll roads, that that will not penalize us in our share because then you truly have a double tax.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes.

JUDGE HARRIS: There's absolutely a half-full and a half-empty way to look at it.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I agree.

JUDGE HARRIS: Half-empty saying why are we doing this because we're getting double-taxed; we're not moving anything ahead, we're not getting anything. If we move Bush ahead, where did that $500 million go?

I think secondly would be as cities and counties -- I know the City of Dallas is in the middle of a large capital improvement campaign and we will be following in November -- we have to build our programs in a general way giving citizens an idea of what they're going to get, what is the value for what they're supporting. And I have a deep abiding faith that the citizens of North Texas have supported transportation projects every time we've brought them because they have an idea these aren't locked in stone because just like our friends in San Antonio, when they got the Toyota plant, they couldn't have known that two or three years ago and they had a bond election. So you want some flexibility to change your priorities, but again, you do it in the light of day. And yes, I do think we can do that.

I know Harris County, Judge Echols and Jim Royer are very excited about having that possibility down there, and we certainly would like to have that as a toolbox, as it were, to work.

MR. WILLIAMSON: When I drive through Fort Worth and stop at the Barnes and Noble to meet Mayor Barr and buy books and then go on to Dallas and go to the theater and continue on to Mesquite to watch a softball game, is it fair for me, living outside of Tarrant County, to contribute to the degradation of air quality and tear up city streets in Fort Worth without paying for it?

JUDGE HARRIS: Actually, you will be able to do that. In May, I believe your county is one of the early counties that's going to start vehicle emissions inspections, along with five other counties surrounding the area that voluntarily did it because they saw their contribution. Now, when the eight-hour standard comes, that will probably turn into a requirement. But right now, yes, you will be able to participate, and yes, you should, but all things aside, our approach from the statewide working group -- this is a statewide problem, and the legislature -- one of the people you mentioned, Representative Wolens -- is very big at taking this through last session. This session a couple of other players are working with it, Chairman Bonnen and Chris Harris over in the Senate just to fix the minor detail of an unconstitutional funding source -- which was not Representative Wolens, it was actually, I think, Representative Bonnen that proposed it, so now he gets to pay the piper.

But it is a statewide problem, and we feel by doing statewide diesel taxes -- which is part of the funding source for this one -- statewide inspection fees and so forth that we are all Texans and we pay for it. And certainly Representative Chisum has been the benchmark in leading us in that direction, and I have not felt the other 36 counties that participate in this group have felt that anyone is not participating, and that really is thanks to the leadership here in the legislature.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And my last inquiry, Judge, so often in this setting once a month, and then in our private conversations or our various meetings around the state, the transportation dialogue, of necessity, focuses on roads, but the reality is a large percentage of our population -- I don't know if it's a majority -- the recent poll that Mr. -- was that your poll that was released -- I think tended to surprise us all about the support for commuter rail, but some of us believe that the future suggests that we should be focused on public transit and in particular rail transit. So none of us mean to imply that there's not room or that transit isn't an important part of the solution from this party. Is that also the case -- I mean, in your mind it's not just roads?

JUDGE HARRIS: No, transit, like an air quality solution, specifically in the four-county area, DART and the "T" play a part, they are not nor will they ever be an answer. I believe in New York City only 10 percent of the people ride mass transit, and that's a number that I've heard, and like any number, it could be wrong. But when you look at the massive number of people and the traffic tie-ups, you know that everybody is not riding the train. But I think that needs to be part of, again, our bag of tools. But I think we must remember that commerce and families travel city to city on the state highways. Connectivity must be maintained. If you order something over the internet, you're a great "e" shopper, it's going to come to you by a FedEx or UPS truck on a road, not on a rail. So we have to do both. It would be nice if we could focus on just one, but so often we can't do that.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I thank you so much.

JUDGE HARRIS: Yes, sir. Thank you.

Are you going to be nice to me, John?

MR. JOHNSON: I'm going to be nice to you.

Robert, did you have anything for the Judge?

MR. NICHOLS: No. I said I was going to wait until we go through the whole thing.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very much.

JUDGE HARRIS: You bet. Now, Alan Howeth from Fort Worth.

MR. HOWETH: Thank you, Ron.

Good morning, commissioners, and thank you for the opportunity to receive our delegation. I'm Alan Howeth, managing partner of Cantey & Hanger, a law firm in Fort Worth, Dallas and Austin, and co-chair of the Fort Worth Chamber Transportation Committee.

As we've listened to Judge Keliher's and Judge Harris' presentations regarding the need for substantial increases in the capacity of our rail, HOV, freeway and tollway systems, the obvious question is what is driving this demand. Well, the obvious answer is growth. Like it or not, we do have continued growth in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, sometimes maybe beyond our ability to keep up with it. We're all in an economic downturn in this country and the DFW area, of course, is not exempt from that, but in the year 2002 we had our seventh consecutive year of adding more than 100,000 in population to our area.

Indications that this level of population growth is expected to continue. Estimates developed by the State Data Center project that an additional 3 million people will be residing in our region by the year 2030, bringing our total population to nearly 9 million persons. North Texas also continues to lead the state in all economic measures. We believe of particular importance are those measures that reflect growth as we continue to lead the state in both population growth and the creation of new jobs.

One of the key measures we present to you annually is the Dallas-Fort Worth area's projected share of the state's gross product, and in the year 2003 it's projected that the DFW area's gross regional product is projected to exceed 34 percent of the state's total, and as you also see in this slide, this measure has continued to rise steadily since we began tracking these numbers in 1995.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Now, did you get Houston's permission to do that?

MR. HOWETH: It was implied consent.

MR. NICHOLS: Implied.

(General laughter.)

MR. HOWETH: And we believe that in order to continue these demographic and economic growth trends, we must continue to make investment in our regional transportation infrastructure. These investments will continue to manage and fuel the Dallas-Fort Worth economy and all of North Central Texas as well as the entire state of Texas.

That concludes my part of it. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to take that.

MR. JOHNSON: Any questions?

MR. NICHOLS: No.

MR. WILLIAMSON: He wasn't in the meeting and he's not an elected official, so I -- he's just a good guy.

MR. JOHNSON: Alan, thank you very much.

MR. HOWETH: Thank you. I'll now turn the podium over to my private sector counterpart, Pam McQuitty.

MS. McQUITTY: Thank you, Alan.

Good morning, commissioners and Director Behrens. I'm Pam McQuitty, senior vice president of public affairs at Bank of America, and also a member of the North Texas Commission board of directors.

As Alan highlighted for you, the North Texas economy has continued to lead the way in the state's economic growth. Unfortunately, we are not keeping pace in our efforts to maintain mobility. We have continued to see a steady rise in congestion despite the combined annual expenditures of $1.2 billion in federal, state and local funds for transportation infrastructure and the tremendous progress we are making in introducing multimodal transportation improvements. Several of the performance measures included in the Texas Transportation Institute's annual urban mobility report support this assessment

The roadway congestion index which serves as a basis for comparing mobility across U.S. cities illustrates that congestion levels continue to rise in Dallas-Fort Worth. The outcome of adding one million people and 800,000 jobs to our region during the past decade without comparable transportation investments has resulted in significant increase in traffic congestion as reflected in the sharp rise of our area's congestion index shown on the chart.

Other related measures from TTI's 2002 Annual Urban Mobility Report show an alarming trend: the Dallas-Fort Worth area ranks third overall among U.S. cities in annual delay per person, fifth in the annual total cost of congestion, and ninth in travel time deterioration since 1994. Our MPO estimates that the cost of congestion in the DFW area to motorists alone now exceeds $5 billion annually and continues to rise.

Securing adequate funding for future transportation improvements is contingent upon providing meaningful and objective performance standards to policy-makers faced with the difficult challenge of allocating limited resources. We applaud your efforts through the UTP process to explore alternative mechanisms, such as performance-based programming, for allocating funds to region and selection of projects. We must also acknowledge, however, that no state funding allocation will meet all of our mobility needs, and we continue to stand ready to work with you and the Texas Legislature to explore opportunities for increasing transportation revenues.

Through our Partners in Mobility we are actively working again this session to raise awareness on this issue. In your binders we've provided copies of the legislative postcard that we are encouraging the public and also business leaders to send to legislators reminding them of the importance of taking action that will increase transportation revenues.

This is the end of my portion. I'll be happy to take any questions or turn the podium over to my counterpart.

MR. JOHNSON: Questions, Ric or Robert?

MR. NICHOLS: No.

MS. McQUITTY: Great. Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON: Pam, thank you very much.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Great, she said.

(General laughter.)

MS. McQUITTY: Yes, really. I'd like to introduce the chairman of the Regional Transportation Council, John Murphy.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Pam.

Good morning, commissioners, Mr. Behrens. I am John Murphy, chairman of the Regional Transportation Council, the metropolitan planning organization for the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

Big problems require aggressive solutions, and as promised to you at your July 25, 2002, commission meeting in Fort Worth, we are going to present an ambitious plan for addressing our mobility needs. While we are very proud of the partnership program that we have had with you since 1999 -- which has been instrumental in funding many of our needed regional transportation projects -- we believe that now is the time that an enhanced partnership program be proposed that focuses on strategic investment opportunities with major regional mobility benefits.

There are five components shown on the slide behind you of our proposal that we believe will generate as much as $3.2 billion of additional revenue for mobility investments in North Texas over the next ten years. First, the use of performance-based programming in the TxDOT UTP program for geographic allocation of Category 2 funds will lead to increased levels of funding to the TxDOT Dallas and TxDOT Fort Worth districts.

Second, we believe that through your support for reprioritizing TxDOT UTP Priority 2 projects, we will be able to expedite as much as $300 million of additional or existing underfunded regional transportation projects in our region.

Third, the leveraging of tollway bond funds to advance regional tollway managed lane projects in North Texas will generate $1.3 billion in construction funding to be used on four key regional projects. We are relying on your continued endorsement for TxDOT's collaboration with the North Texas Tollway Authority, and the Texas Turnpike Authority in funding and construction of tollways and managed lanes.

Fourth, we are requesting an allocation of $100 million annually over the next ten years in the Texas Transportation Commission's Strategic Priority Fund to TxDOT Dallas and TxDOT Fort Worth to construct freeway and tollway system improvements.

Fifth and finally, the Regional Transportation Council is dedicating $300 million of Federal Surface Transportation Program Metropolitan Mobility funds to be used in partnership with you to move forward on the construction of major freeway system improvements in the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area. On my left you will see a check -- which just try to cash it -- that we will like to present to you today following our formal presentation.

A list of candidate projects to be considered for funding through this proposal over the next ten years is illustrated on the map behind you. We recognize that these funds will not cover the cost of completing all of the projects shown, and indeed, we remain diligent about pursuing any and all additional federal state and local funds that we can bring to the table to support these projects.

We are optimistic that this enhanced partnership program will provide funding for the construction of several key regional projects, including: State Highway 121T, the Southwest Parkway in Fort Worth; the reconstruction of State Highway 183, the Airport Freeway in northeast Tarrant County; the Trinity Parkway around downtown Dallas; managed HOV express toll lanes on Interstate 635, the LBJ Freeway corridor; and State Highway 121 from the funnel in Grapevine to US 75 in McKinney.

Each of these large regional projects comes with an equally large price tag, and we've all heard the joke that the definition of partnership is that I don't have any money; can I use some of yours? The partnership between the transportation commission and the RTC has truly been a partnership and one that has allowed us to accomplish many of our goals and bring some important plans to fruition. Our proposal is 100 percent dedicated to regional facilities -- and I emphasize the word "regional." We hope that you will embrace this proposal as well so that we can continue to work together to address mobility needs in North Texas.

With that, I'll take questions if you have any, sir.

MR. WILLIAMSON: You get the same exemption from me.

MR. MURPHY: Very good. I appreciate the exemption. With that, it's my pleasure to introduce the mayor of Dallas, Laura Miller, to conclude our presentation.

MAYOR MILLER: I am pleased to be here to be the Ken Barr bookend speaker. I also want to follow up on what the commissioner said about Ken Barr. As the chairman of the Transportation Committee for the U.S. Conference of Mayors, I have been so privileged to watch Ken Barr in that position for the last year and to really help me as a baby mayor in North Texas to really appreciate the transportation challenges we've had to face in North Texas. I am deeply saddened that he is not going to be the mayor after next month and I want to thank him publicly from all of us for all of his great work.

(Applause.)

MAYOR MILLER: Now, my official job is to show you the seven items that are on the screen back there, all of which have already been discussed, so I will move on.

I would like to tell you that I've listened to all the comments about how many cars we have on our streets and our highways in North Texas and how successful -- and it's true -- that DART has been and the North Texas Tollway Authority and TxDOT, and I will tell you how grateful I am, for example, that Central Expressway looks the way it does now, and all that you're doing on the High Five project which is an engineering marvel and we're very appreciative for that.

But there's a bigger issue here and it's a regional issue, and if you believe, as I heard previously, that we have regional problems -- and I agree with Ken Barr that two on the top of the list are transportation and education -- the third biggest problem that he and I agree on is that you've got an enormous environmental problem with emissions in our part of the world. And as we all know, we're under threat right now from the federal government that if we don't clean up our act and clean up our air in North Texas, we're going to be losing a whole lot of highway money.

So we take that very seriously, and Ken Barr and I have spent the last year discussing how do you resolve this problem when you don't have enough money and you've got too many cars and you've got too many people and you know that you can't, in a world that has high quality, just continue to lay concrete and think that that can be the solution to your problems.

Ken and I went to Montreal, Canada, on a joint trade mission, the first joint trade mission ever for a Dallas and Fort Worth mayor, and we were so impressed because in Montreal they used to have 27 cities in the metropolitan area with 27 different forms of government and last year they consolidated 27 into one city and the City of Montreal now runs it all. And we got there in time to see how difficult and challenging that is, but Ken and I were inspired because we feel like if we treat Dallas-Fort Worth as one region with the same goals and the same dreams and the same concerns for transportation and the environment, that we can get moving a lot more quickly. And one of the reasons it's so great to be here today is because all of us are here with that message for you, and we rarely get together like this and make this pitch, so that's why I came down because I think it's very important.

I really do agree that the problem with solving regional transportation problems is going to be money, and we have spent the last year, Ken Barr and I, discussing how do you get the money to not just build roads but to get DART -- which has been surprisingly successful for some of us who years ago didn't think it could work -- how do you get DART blown out very, very quickly so that the four major counties, and of course you've had to then include the counties to the east and west since Weatherford is the economic capital of North Texas --

(General laughter.)

MAYOR MILLER:  -- but how do you get the money to allow a University of North Texas student in Denton to get on light rail and go to the SMU library or to go to the Modern Art Museum that was just recently opened in Fort Worth? How do you get an Arlington family on light rail to go to the State Fair of Texas instead of getting on the road? And that's what this is all about if you want to solve the air quality problems and congestion problems at one time.

And the money is a problem, not only because, as you know, you have limitations on your money, but as we know from discussing this -- especially this time in the legislature -- I do not think it's realistic that we're going to have the sales tax rate increase to do transit, I don't think that's realistic, and that's been proposed. And I give a lot of credit to Walt Hughman, who you know is Mr. North Central Expressway, because he has brought this idea to us, you know, how do we get a mass transit system, how do we get people out of their cars, what's the inducement and how do we fund that?

Because of the current structure, Dallas may put a penny in for transit but Fort Worth can't because half of their penny they decided years ago to spend on a crime commission, on a crime district for police officers, and if Ken Barr is going to put his whole penny toward mass transit to join us to do light rail, he's going to have to find $35 million in his budget overnight to pay for those police officers that are currently using half of that penny.

Look at the 4A and 4B money that's spent in North Texas on economic development, and that's tied up. So if you want to get to the goal -- and I do -- which is cleaning up the air and getting people out of their cars, then you've got to look realistically at the money. When we had the meeting with my husband Steve Wolens and Senator Kim Brimer and Commissioner Williamson and Judge Margaret Keliher on February 18, I was very pleased that we all said since we can't do sales tax and since different cities are limited on funding, and since you can't do a gas tax because gas tax can't go toward light rail under the constitution, it can only go towards roads and education, then if you want to get to the goal, how are you going to do it?

And we all embraced in that meeting the cram-down concept of using our existing roads to have people have a choice: pay the toll and stay in your car, or maybe you decide if light rail can be built quickly to my city, to Denton or to Arlington -- who I believe will not be able to afford to build their own light rail themselves -- if they buy into a regional authority -- which I think is a great idea -- and we have a way to fund it to build light rail out quickly, I think you will get more people choosing to get out of their car if it's easy for them to get on light rail and get across our region.

So I think that the bill that has been filed is very good because it makes us start talking and it crystallizes the issue that Ken Barr and I have worked so hard on this last year to try to find solutions for our region. I'm a girl that probably acts too quickly on her ideas but I think this idea is one that we absolutely have to pursue, and all of us need to do it together with DART, with NTTA. DART has provided the model and it works; NTTA has provided the model and it works. But things are moving too slowly for some of us in the region because we want to get to the goal a whole lot faster.

MR. JOHNSON: Any questions?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Oh, yeah. As I indicated earlier, Mayor Miller, I truly believe you and Mayor Barr are two of the great mayors in our state, and I think you're great because you're both fearless and you're not afraid to take the arrows and you're not afraid to take the criticism. I just need to get that on the record. I'm not objective about the two mayors of North Texas, mayors of the big cities.

In your recollection of the meeting, did we ever discuss excluding anybody?

MAYOR MILLER: No.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And did we ever discuss stopping anyone as opposed to expanding the service, the public transit service on the state? It was not an attack on any entity, it was a discussion of expanding service. We weren't focused on individuals or entities, were we?

MAYOR MILLER: No.

MR. WILLIAMSON: It's interesting how people talk, is it not?

MAYOR MILLER: Well, it's interesting to be excited about a concept in a meeting and all kind of come to the same conclusion and decide collectively to act on it, and then after the meeting some folks I guess changed their minds and don't let everybody else know. But I will tell you, you know, it's a scary thing to think about taking something wonderful like DART and making it much bigger in a very quick way. It's very scary to think about putting tolls on existing roads, but if you want to solve the problem, then all of us together -- because I think all of these agencies are very successful unto themselves, and it's so interesting to me as a formal council member, I spent the first four years in the Dallas City Council really not understanding as an elected official in the eighth-largest city in America how does TxDOT, NTTA, RTC, TRE, the "T", TTI, the MPO, North Texas Commission, Partners in Mobility, how do they all work together and what's the goal. And I think it's incumbent upon us to come together and with a unified voice, figure out the goal and go get it, and if it's tolls on roads, we need to talk about that.

MR. WILLIAMSON: And my recollection, as that particular meeting stopped, was that Mr. Brimer, as well as Mr. Wolens, said we will file this and start the dialogue. It wasn't we will file this and pass it before anybody can stop us.

MAYOR MILLER: No. And just so you know, really with Walt Hughman's leadership, he came up with this idea of the regional authority a long time ago and brought it to me as soon as I was elected mayor a year ago, and I've had lots of meetings since then with him and other elected officials to try to come up with a plan for this. We had one meeting out at COG in Arlington with a large number, from Florence Shapiro to Kim Brimer to a lot of us that were there, mayors and state legislators, and we talked about this issue: how do we get there. So this is not something new, it was not born of the meeting we had with you, it's just been a part of the dialogue for the last year.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you so much.

MAYOR MILLER: Thank you very much for having us. And out of the interest for true regional cooperation, I will now mention my three top priorities for Dallas which are LBJ Freeway, the Trinity Parkway, and the I-30 replacement Calatrava Bridge. Thank you very much.

(General laughter.)

MR. JOHNSON: Robert, I know that you have a question or two. To whom did you want to pose them?

MR. NICHOLS: I'm not going to pose it to anybody until I get it specific and we'll just see who jumps up. First of all, Mayor Miller, that's the first time I've heard anyone refer to a mayor of one of the largest metropolitan areas on our state as a "baby mayor." Is that what you said?

MAYOR MILLER: Well, short term.

MR. NICHOLS: All right. I couldn't help but note that.

MR. WILLIAMSON: That's a former mayor to a former mayor.

MR. NICHOLS: Also, kind of an opening comment, I want to say that as many questions that have been asked of the different people who attended a particular meeting, I'm glad I wasn't at it.

(General laughter.)

MR. NICHOLS: With that, I'll kind of jump down my list. This really appears to turn into more of a meeting as a presentation which I think is very helpful. A couple of ham-and-eggs things I had, a lot of you over the last several years have asked our agency to figure out ways to streamline our funding, shorten the number of categories, get more local input, all of those kind of things. That was never mentioned today because you know we've been into a two-year transition trying to accomplish that very thing, and I think we're very close to finishing it.

In that we had different task forces, one of which was all the metros, to come together and basically make recommendations as to a method of allocation to the metros because there's always this concern that one group is getting more than the other, that sort of stuff, and I think they came up with some pretty good recommendations from that. And I know in a few months we're going to seriously consider adopting that, and I would like to see a formalized acceptance or rejection or whatever of that formula, and I think that probably would go through the MPO.

MR. MORRIS: Commissioner, let me quickly give you a quick background.

MR. JOHNSON: Can you identify yourself for the record?

MR. MORRIS: I'm sorry. Michael Morris, director of transportation for the Metropolitan Planning Organization of Dallas-Fort Worth.

Last summer the Regional Transportation Council began on this partnership program and we knew that if the region was going to develop new assets, a policy question we've had before you since 1996 was a way to ensure that transportation revenues generated from the Dallas-Fort Worth region would come to the Dallas-Fort Worth region. So if you or the legislature wished to propose a local option gasoline tax or a new toll road initiative or some particular initiative, it wasn't going to come at the expense of the Dallas-Fort Worth residents continuing to pay additional funds on new initiatives -- let's say like new toll roads -- without some assurances that the revenues that they're paying won't come to this particular region.

The reason why you didn't hear anything about the Unified Transportation Program is we've long blessed the new Unified Transportation Program. You have asked some of us to serve on those particular committees, of which our director and assistant director served. The recommendation in Category 2 is to adopt the commission's new five strategic priority goals and any other performance measures you wish to do, create an accountable system for local regions on how they develop transportation, and allocate those performance dollars to those particular regions in Category 2.

I happened to serve on that Category 2 committee. I was a lone wolf at meeting number 1 and 2 and 3 when I tried to say: I served on Chairman Johnson's policy committee on strategic priority; if we really believe in those goals, then we should translate those goals into performance objectives, hold us accountable in our urban regions; given an annual or every two-year report to the legislature on how we're doing with those particular goals; allocate the dollars to the urban regions based on those performance measures. As a result of that commitment, if you can make that commitment, the Dallas-Fort Worth region through either property tax referendums in the City of Dallas or Collin County, like you heard today, or the flexibility of surface transportation program funds to build more projects, or the construction of toll road projects within the region, or the construction of toll road projects on express lanes within the region, you then create for the first time a dynamic opportunity to raise all those revenues to move projects along.

So I think one thing I need to clarify for the record, I abstained from the vote on that particular committee because I was the author of the Dallas-Fort Worth solution that went to that particular committee of which that committee, as you'll see, has voted unanimously in bringing that proposal to you. You will get a letter from the Regional Transportation Council obviously endorsing the partnership program because $300 million they already approved last September to bring forward to you as part of this presentation as we continue to work with you on the specific projects you wish them to be put on.

MR. NICHOLS: Thanks. It's that formal letter, resolution or whatever method that we're looking for. I felt like it was supported, particularly since you kind of authored it, I just have not seen a formal adoption of it and I didn't want somebody later to come back and say, well, we never formally adopted it.

Number two, in the list of projects -- not specific projects but there was a tremendous amount of emphasis on tolling, different opinions on how to toll, but I think we're all heading exactly in the same direction that if we can toll and take advantage of the opportunities to toll whenever possible, whether it be on new expansions, new locations or whatever, we're going to begin evaluating every single project that way because we can build three projects as opposed to one faster and faster and so on.

In light of that, I know that toll tags -- I heard toll tags mentioned several times -- great system, Houston has got a great system, there are other toll works in the process around the state, and we kind of envision over time an interconnectivity of tolling facilities, some of them corridors, some of them regional congestion things, and the term "interoperability" is going to become extremely important. In other words, if someone in the NTTA area gets a toll tag, they need to be able to use that to drive in Houston or Austin or San Antonio or any of these other systems with one toll tag. NTTA can manage that toll tag, sell it, process the cost, whatever, very much like a Visa card, but the technology is available for that system for NTTA to be paid for the processing when one of their subscribers travels to another area of the state, because we don't want a system where our citizens in the state cannot pass through.

Now, I know all the regional toll authorities agree with that, but the problem is everybody wants everybody else to use their system, nobody wants to change their system because they don't match, and as the technology evolves -- I will just state from the commission's standpoint -- it's going to be extremely important that that be resolved fairly shortly. And I think everybody supports that; there's just disagreement on exactly how to get there.

In that formula -- as I understand you were talking about, Michael -- in our UTP the establishment of a consistent funding mechanism that a region or a district can count on pretty much should address the concern about being penalized for tolling or some of these other initiatives. If we establish by some of the formulas that I saw, then regardless of whether you had some local extra money put in or you did an extra toll project, you still have a consistent funding source, and that in effect protects -- as I understand it -- the concern that the area may be penalized. Does it not?

MR. MORRIS: Mr. Nichols, absolutely. If you go to performance-based programming, tie it to a ten-year vision, your elected officials in El Paso and San Antonio and Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth know your commitment, they know where the shortfalls are, then they can work hard to make up any of those increments to build as an aggressive a transportation vision as they wish.

MR. NICHOLS: Thank you.

Another item I did not hear today that I had spent a lot of time up in that region working with relates to the subject called "access management." There was a lot of controversy, a lot of discussions. Over the past two years we've brought the issue up as a state, we felt like it's very important to consider. We have not -- I heard the term -- rammed it down anybody's throat; we have been studying and working with all areas of the state for the last several years on that. There's 41 or 43 cities in the State of Texas that have already adopted access management -- and this is more of an informative comment than a question -- and we threw several ideas of proposed rules at hearings around the state, we began the process of addressing those.

A lot of the concerns I kept hearing, particularly toward the end, as it evolved was that how do you have a set of rules that refers to a manual and we can't look at the manual because the manual isn't written. Of course, we were saying you don't do the manual until you decide to do a set of rules, so with that in mind, we have been working on the manual, and let you know that in about a month -- we believe by the end of April -- that manual or the first completed draft will be complete -- letting everybody know in advance. We will put it on the internet, it will be on our website, we'll let you know when it is, we'll send enough messages around, and I would encourage any of you who are concerned about it or interested in it to have your transportation people, the engineers in the area, developers start looking at that manual because we want to continue moving in a positive direction working with you direction towards access management because we truly believe it is going to be very significant.

I know that Senator Shapiro has a bill that in effect protects municipalities if they have their own policy/procedure of driveways and access management. We support that; we had told everybody we were going to try to put that in our rules anyway. I know it's a very comforting thought to know it's in statute. We'll let you know we support that. She's been very good about it, very positive toward transportation, so we think that's good.

But we let you know it's coming.

And number three, I want to thank all of you for being here and working on these things year after year. I know it's a lot of work, a lot of you are passionate. It is so important, however there may be some disagreements, that everybody is concerned and heading in the same direction to solve the problem we all know we have and is coming. It is so meaningful when you as citizens, as elected officials come talk to us, particularly during a session to your legislative members. It is immeasurable the value that your contribution has been toward this process and I want you to know I appreciate it.

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Are you going to speak?

MR. JOHNSON: Are you referring to me?

MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir. There's one thing I need to ask because I don't want to go last, you're the chair.

MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Well, fire away.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Real quickly, if you can do one thing in this legislative session to improve transportation, if the legislature can do one thing, Judge Harris, what would it be?

JUDGE HARRIS: Pass Senator Ogden's bill.

MR. JOHNSON: Senator Ogden's bill.

Ken?

MAYOR BARR: Senator Ogden's bill.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Senator Ogden's bill.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Mayor Miller?

MAYOR MILLER: I'd like us to spend some time trying to flesh out the idea of a regional transportation commission.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Judge Keliher, where are you? One thing?

JUDGE KELIHER: I would like to flesh out some regional transportation issues too, whether or not that's with this bill or not, I don't know.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Michael?

MR. MORRIS: Commissioner, if we don't get support for that air quality initiative, we're not going to be building very many transportation projects, so the TERP funding for that legislation.

MR. JOHNSON: Glen, one thing?

MR. WHITLEY: I'd like to see some money in mobility funds.

MR. WILLIAMSON: Interesting you're the only person who said mobility fund. Anybody else? Thank you. I just wanted to do a quick poll.

MR. JOHNSON: Thanks. A lot has been said -- and I don't want to extend this any longer than it needs to be -- I did want to embellish on a thought or two. First of all, this meeting on February 18, whenever it occurred, Robert, it's a good thing you weren't there because it would have been unlawful for you to have been there.

(General laughter.)

MR. JOHNSON: But there were two or three points, I think, that are particularly my pets, if you will, and Robert, you touched on certainly one which is this interoperability of the various toll systems around the state. I think it's commonsensical to expect that there be interoperability, but I think that we must demand that there be interoperability. It's senseless for the citizens of this state, depending on whether you're a participant mostly in the North Texas Tollway Authority's program or HCTRA's program in Harris County, or the new Central Texas Turnpike system -- which will be up and running I guess in 2005 -- to go outside your region or outside your system and not have your toll tag be valid for use in those things and have to stop and pay directly. To me that is just non-Texan.

I know NTTA has taken the lead and HCTRA and our Texas Turnpike Authority are having dialogue and hopefully very fruitful dialogue to get to a common denominator where the great people of this wonderful state can go from one system to another, and then extrapolate upon that, use it in other maybe commercial enterprises like parking. I know the future is limitless, the ideas that we can generate, and I'm confident that we'll be successful. Robert, I'm pleased that you mentioned that.

The impression is, and it's an accurate one, tolling is a future way of construction of surface transportation in the state. I think without question we agree that our resources are limited and that tolling is probably the answer that looms, and we are moving very rapidly in that direction. And I think it's illustrative that two of the things came forward just in dialogue today.

Judge Harris, you mentioned the George Bush Turnpike, for example, probably moved timewise probably 10 or 15 years of becoming a toll feature. And then Robert suggested that we can do three to four projects if they're toll projects as to one that's a non-toll project. And I think if you combine the element of time and the ability to do more projects, it once again becomes pretty logical that that's an avenue that we're going to pursue and pursue vigorously. And I know in partnership with the Metroplex, with NTTA for certain, and what other tolling authorities or RMAs around the state, we want to be partners and be supportive because that's the answer.

MR. WILLIAMSON: John, may I?

MR. JOHNSON: You certainly may.

MR. WILLIAMSON: I didn't realize you were going to make that comment, and this is maybe an appropriate time for all of us to ask our partners in the audience. Many of my former colleagues understand the cash flow constraints of the department, but many of them do not, and particularly those who represent less urban parts of the state -- and maybe I should just leave that clarifier there. It should be obvious from our meetings every month and the messages we carry out into the districts, we really don't have any alternative but to build toll roads, and Mr. Behrens has been communicating to our district engineers now on a daily basis: every road, every lane, think toll because if we don't seize the initiative and do something, we will not have any money for transportation in 25 years. I'm talking new transportation.

It's probably important for each of you, as the chairman said, to accept that and then walk across the street and be sure my good friends and my former colleagues understand. This is really serious, it's not fun and games anymore. If we're going to have any capacity expansion in the next 25 years, it's going to be either NTTA or HCTRA or the State of Texas, it's going to be the Trans Texas Corridor or the new Urban Mobility Corridor, it's going to be the City of Fort Worth and the City of Dallas and the City of Houston and the City of Austin. I mean, that's just where we are, and we are fortunate in this state that we already have a robust system of tax roads that citizens can choose to drive if they do not wish to pay the toll. And the time is now and everybody has got to hear that message and move forward, while at the same time recognizing what Mr. Barr and Ms. Miller, and I hope myself, have made clear -- and the governor; it's strange that a boy from Paint Creek is going to be the governor that brought commuter rail and public transit to the front of transportation in Texas -- that it can't be ignored that that investment has to be made.

I appreciate you bringing that up and reminding people. It's real serious, it's no joke; it's got to be done.

MR. JOHNSON: And I believe my last point that I wanted to emphasize was one, Michael, that you brought forth, and that's the predictability of funding sources and funding amounts. And you know, I hate to use a worn-out expression "win-win" but if you have predictability on funding from the regional level and from the state level, you can work together so much more easily than if the funding sources are unknown and sporadic. So I just can't emphasize how important I feel that it is and I know everybody in the room feels it is, whether you're on this side working with the regions and the districts, in this case, or you're on that side working with TxDOT. I think that's one of the huge benefits to what we're trying to adopt or actually develop and then adopt.

So having said that, I want to emphasize and embellish on all three of our appreciation to each of you who take so much time and effort and put it into these efforts. Transportation is the cornerstone of quality of life of this state and it's one of the reasons that this state is as great as it is, a